Hyundai Kona Forum banner
161 - 180 of 232 Posts

·
Registered
2020 Kona EV Limited
Joined
·
33 Posts
This is a duplicate of my post on this subject over at insideevs.

As per my previous posts in this thread, I flushed and changed the reduction gear fluid at 3700km. The fluid used was Penrite Pro Gear 70W-75. As planned, I changed the fluid again at 10,000km, so this fluid has been in use for 6300km. I sent a sample of the used fluid plus a sample of fresh fluid for comparison to be analysed and have just received the results, attached below.
I think they use boilerplate text for their comments as I've explained three times now that there is no auto transmission or engine heat in a Kona EV, both of which were mentioned in the comments. Nevertheless the aluminium content reported doesn't auger particularly well for my Kona, IMO.
I sent for a couple of test kits from Blackstone and plan to send samples in once I get Hyundai to agree to change my oil (I wouldn't bet the ranch on it). How did you come up with the 6300km (roughly 4000 miles for me) for the analysis?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
IHow did you come up with the 6300km (roughly 4000 miles for me) for the analysis?
No science to it, I just wanted a round number on the odometer to make for easier forward planning. That made this fluid change at 10,000km which happened to be 6300km after the issue was brought to my attention in the forums here and insideevs.

Next change and test will be in 5,000km or 10,000km (ie at 15,000km or 20,000km on the odo), I haven't decided yet. Probably 20,000km on the odo (10k service interval) as that will represent about a year's travel for the vehicle.
 

·
Registered
2022 Kona Elite extended range
Joined
·
41 Posts
That's an impressive test in the oil and does illustrate the competitive abilities of the external magnet(s) along with the similar field strength numbers as the Votex. I'm wondering how tenaciously the particles are held in place when the oil is under a high level of turbulence? It appears that the magnet stack presents a large field while the Votex seems confined to a much smaller area. But the Votex may have a higher gradient at the surface and perhaps that might help particles stay attached?
I think as you say the Votex has a more concentrated field and its debris retention strength may be greater, when I get to Repco and pick up the second sump plug i'll do more tests.
There may be a case for having the magnet stack on the sump plug and a Vortex on the fill, as the heavier particles should tend to settle and the stronger field of the external magnets may have more success capturing them.
The magnets have a countersunk 5mm centre hole, so If I decide to go with them I will drill a blind hole and tap the plug ta accept a 5mm countersunk SS screw, to retain the pack.
The good thing is we are correlating more information so it can't be all bad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Just got the dealer to change the oil at 1,600 miles on my 21 Kona Electric. It looked black. I stick my fingers in it. Felt slippery and I did not feel any grit which would be associated with large metal particles in it. Dealer claims it is good and nothing to worry about. I plan to change again at 5,000 miles. I have attached a picture.
So the car got to 5,000 miles and I have started the oil change job.

First thing to note is that 1.25 liters of oil came out! Not the 3.5 liters that the dealer charged me for when he did the change at 1,600 miles. See attached picture.

Second thing is that in 3,400 miles (5,000 - 1,600) the oil turned black again. It is still slippery and I do not feel any grit but I am disappointed.

I plan to play with a couple of magnet options tomorrow before refilling.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
472 Posts
Adding to the archives of idiotic dealer responses was this yesterday from a local owner:
... The other thing is we asked was that the reduction gear oil be changed and that I would like to see what came out. That promptly had the service manager talking to me, who vowed and declared the reduction gear is a sealed unit. In the ensuing discussion I noted that there had been concern about the reduction gear boxes; that I was being proactive to try and avoid issues down track; and as I had brought it up should there be any issues down track, including after warranty runs out I would be expecting Hyundai to fix it at no cost. But the big surprise was to be told the gearbox is a sealed unit.
... First thing to note is that 1.25 liters of oil came out!...
Certainly this style of gearbox would be tolerant of incorrect levels. Most of the contents are violently slung around the inside the casing while running and an extra (or missing) 0.25 litre won't make a whole lot of difference. As long as the main "wheel" (the actual technical name for the larger gear of a meshing pair) is well-immersed oil will be slung everywhere. But if they had installed 3.5 litres oil would come out of the breather opening, the cavity at about 2 o'clock.
Photograph White Automotive tire Gas Rim
 

·
Registered
2020 Kona EV Limited
Joined
·
33 Posts
And right in the Owners Manual (page 7-10) it lists the driving conditions under which they recommend replacing the reduction gear fluid at 75,000 miles. I'm bringing mine in to the local dealer for round two tomorrow. Not looking forward to it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
So I played a bit with two magnet options. One is the Vortex and the other other is a couple of very strong magnets stuck to the back of the OEM drain bolt. I did not have iron filings and could not get any easily so went to the local hardware shop which sharpens lawnmower blades. I got he debris from the blade sharpener and used that as it has iron in it. I put some of this material on a flat surface on a paper towel and slowly brought the Vortex bolt and the OEM bolt with magnets close to it. The OEM bolt could pick up material from about 0.75 inch away and the Vortex would pull from about 0.5 inch away. See below:

Then I put this material in a plastic container filled with water and it looks like the OEM bolt could pull more material to the side. Including those pictures too below.


Hand Wood Finger Nail Chemical compound
Vertebrate Black Mammal Wood Wall
Recipe Wood Grass Pattern Cuisine
Recipe Cuisine Gesture Dish Ingredient


Having this data I decided to use option 2, the OEM bolt with powerful magnets stuck to it. I did not use two sided tape or anything. The magnets are so strong that they are attached firmly to the bolt. See below:


Hand Wood Finger Nail Chemical compound
Vertebrate Black Mammal Wood Wall
Recipe Wood Grass Pattern Cuisine
Recipe Cuisine Gesture Dish Ingredient
Hand Wood Finger Nail Chemical compound
Automotive tire Tire Motor vehicle Vehicle brake Automotive exhaust
Hand Wood Finger Nail Chemical compound
Vertebrate Black Mammal Wood Wall
Recipe Wood Grass Pattern Cuisine
Recipe Cuisine Gesture Dish Ingredient
Automotive tire Tire Motor vehicle Vehicle brake Automotive exhaust


What I did was slip a 5/8 in plastic tube on the magnets just so that I could use a socket to tighten the bolt and not have the magnets stuck to the bolt.

Then when it was installed I worried a bit what would happen if through vibration, the magnets are released from the drain bolt. I did not want them to stick to the driveshaft nearby! So I secured the magnets with a steel wire to the bottom of the transmission case. Picture attached.

Hand Wood Finger Nail Chemical compound
Vertebrate Black Mammal Wood Wall
Recipe Wood Grass Pattern Cuisine
Recipe Cuisine Gesture Dish Ingredient
Automotive tire Tire Motor vehicle Vehicle brake Automotive exhaust


Automotive tire Motor vehicle Automotive exhaust Automotive design Rim


I have a boroscope so plan to take a look at this every night and watch if the magnets stay secure.

Hopefully this will work. This solution uses the OEM bolt and at least with lawn mower blade sharpening debris is just as good or a little better than the Vortex. I hope the magnets remain stuck to the bolt. We will see. I think I will do another change at 10,000 miles just to see what is caught and then every 10,000 after that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
472 Posts
Interesting... I had a feeling that an external magnet might be similarly effective to the Votex but with the massive ones you're using I'm not surprised you had better results! You could always place one on each plug to minimise the admittedly-minuscule risk of them dropping off.

I did an experiment recently with a magnet pair from a 2.5" disk drive in slightly-used gear oil and was surprised to find that the particles congregated on the back sides of the assembly rather than in between them where the field must be the strongest. The magnets stick together N-S and S-N with a ~3mm gap to clear the voice coil actuator. The backing material is "mu-metal" which has very good ferromagnetic properties and "shorts" the outside N-S field present from the attached magnet. The field in between the magnets has parallel field lines and that's the primary design intent of the assembly. But with the two halves placed together the field also leaks out the edges and I'm guessing has a toroidal shape in the air around the assembly. The place where the particles are attracted to I suspect has a very high gradient (change of flux) and that's why they're happiest there.

The stock drain plug will also have a strong gradient between the inside ferrous end and the air, distorted further by the 10mm opening. The Votex has no steel at all (the body is stainless) to distort the natural field and I believe that's why it's less effective on very small particles. One thing's for sure - using large items to evaluate the magnetic strength is misleading. You need to distort and mangle the field at a tiny scale similar to the particle size so that they can "help" conduct the flux into a more favorable shape. When you see iron filings on paper used to show a magnetic field it's notable that many are not all stuck to one end but stay in an arc in free air that follow the field lines. Introduce a small ferrous item anywhere in that field and the particles will jump over to that simply because it introduces a sharp gradient.

Ironically my late astrophysicist father was an expert in the subject of solar magnetic fields and probably could have explained this easily while I'm just guessing after tinkering around in the kitchen for while.

White Font Art Slope Automotive exterior
Fluid Bicycle part Snout Font Auto part
Fluid Wood Tints and shades Flash photography Monochrome photography
 

·
Registered
2022 Kona Elite extended range
Joined
·
41 Posts
Well while we are on the subject, I picked up the second aftermarket sump plug from Repco and it has a 30mm head, so I have ordered some 30mmx5mm magnets and will compare the tests with the Vortex, 24mm and 30mm plugs to see if there is any major differences.
What I'm thinking atm is, if there is a noticeable improvement with the 30mm, I may consider magnets on the standard drain plug and replacing the standard fill plug with the 30mm and magnets, also I'm thinking of changing the oil at 500km, 1500, 5,000, and then at 10,000, as it will only be 2x 2.5L containers so not a major cost.
After 10,000 I would have thought any break in wear would be complete, an oil test at 10,000 should indicate how things are going, I will keep samples from all the changes and have them tested with the 10,000.
Well that's my plan, now I just have to wait for the car to arrive.:(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Well while we are on the subject, I picked up the second aftermarket sump plug from Repco and it has a 30mm head, so I have ordered some 30mmx5mm magnets and will compare the tests with the Vortex, 24mm and 30mm plugs to see if there is any major differences.
What I'm thinking atm is, if there is a noticeable improvement with the 30mm, I may consider magnets on the standard drain plug and replacing the standard fill plug with the 30mm and magnets, also I'm thinking of changing the oil at 500km, 1500, 5,000, and then at 10,000, as it will only be 2x 2.5L containers so not a major cost.
After 10,000 I would have thought any break in wear would be complete, an oil test at 10,000 should indicate how things are going, I will keep samples from all the changes and have them tested with the 10,000.
Well that's my plan, now I just have to wait for the car to arrive.:(
Yes, I think that's a good plan. I remain concerned about what is causing the blackness of the oil. Maybe we should hide it with a molybdenum disulphide or tungsten disulphide additive. LOL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
The stronger the magnets the better, in my opinion. I ordered mine from:
www.appliedmagnets.com

They are:
N45 Neodymium Magnets 5/8 in x 5/8 in Rare Earth Cylinder.

Kiwi, thank you for the insight. I tried a single magnet on the bolt but the field did not appear to be as strong and the magnet was not as securely attached to the bolt. Two magnets in tandem seemed to be stronger.

I do have another two magnets that I got for the filler bolt, but I could not find a secure place to anchor them with a wire, just in case they detach from the bolt. So I thought I will try the drain, first.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
I was looking at recommendations for replacement of oil in manual transmissions and truck differentials. All of them recommend 30,000 - 60,000 miles. Subaru recommends 30,000 miles and so does Honda. I wonder if there is data on oil color chnage in Honda or Toyota manual transmissions after 5,000 miles.
 

·
Registered
2022 Kona Elite extended range
Joined
·
41 Posts
Yes, I think that's a good plan. I remain concerned about what is causing the blackness of the oil. Maybe we should hide it with a molybdenum disulphide or tungsten disulphide additive. LOL.
I wouldn't worry about the colour too much as most gearboxes and diffs I have worked on usually have discoloured oil, as long as there is no suspended ferrous metal in there it shouldn't be a major issue. From your last oil analysis it sounded as though most of the debri was aluminium which can only be from the case or maybe a spacer, if it was severe damage I would expect to see suspended aluminium pieces as it should be tearing itself to bits, steel gears rubbing aluminium cases the steel gears win fairly quickly.
I had a Jeep with the quadra drive diffs back and front, the rear diff oil was always clean, the front always black.:unsure:
Possibly due to different loading, due to the front wheels locking up on tight turns? Just my musings
 

·
Registered
2020 Kona EV Limited
Joined
·
33 Posts
I had the Votex drain plugs installed today at my local Hyundai dealer. It was not an easy appointment but all is as it should be. I have my oil sample ready to post tomorrow to Blackstone Labs. I paid $42.03 for the MTF-70W Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid and $80.00 for labor (they charge $140 an hour), which covers a bit over a half hour, plus an extra $8.46 for something "Misc.". The oil (see photo) did not look too dark or thick or particle laden to me. I will post the lab results when I receive them back from Blackstone. Odometer read 4179 miles today. Glad this is completed.
Liquid Water Fluid Serveware Drink
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
472 Posts
I had the Votex drain plugs installed today at my local Hyundai dealer.
Good to hear that it's done and yes the oil doesn't look too bad from your photo. I guess persistence has paid off in the end. I assume no veiled threats about using an aftermarket plug? Were they amazed that it fit despite looking smaller and being shiny?

****
Black oil
The reason for our concern associated with black oil is that it is potentially a sign of aluminium loss due to outer race spin and may be related to the infamous tapping noise. As I've mentioned before there is a technical mistake in the gearbox design (IMO) that could lead to this, essentially industry-standard bearing raceway retention guidelines have been ignored. Thanks to owner contributions we're now quite familiar with the internal layout of the gearbox and there are no aluminium shims or spacers that can be blamed. I'll note that all other EV gearboxes I've researched don't have this issue with the potential exception of the Leaf.

Alternatively or additionally, the blackness could result from the iron particles being crushed into dust. I'm hoping that this is the only reason present here because that should be easily remedied by effective magnetic particle filtration, e.g. adding a magnet because the stock internal one doesn't work. Black oil is always a sign of abnormal operation in a simple gear reducer even if it we have seen it in other vehicles. The short lifetime in hours required of gearboxes used in motor vehicles is why it's usually a tolerable situation and certainly we know that relevant lubrication-related failures are very rare in the Kona, I'm aware of perhaps 3 reported. The primary benefit from us adding a magnet or two is that we will get quieter operation over the car's lifetime. It's also possible that we'll be less susceptible to the tapping noise problem but that remains to be seen. But we're also learning a lot about magnets and oil analyses, thanks to those who have gone the extra mile!
 

·
Registered
2020 Kona EV Limited
Joined
·
33 Posts
Good to hear that it's done and yes the oil doesn't look too bad from your photo. I guess persistence has paid off in the end. I assume no veiled threats about using an aftermarket plug? Were they amazed that it fit despite looking smaller and being shiny?

****
Black oil
The reason for our concern associated with black oil is that it is potentially a sign of aluminium loss due to outer race spin and may be related to the infamous tapping noise. As I've mentioned before there is a technical mistake in the gearbox design (IMO) that could lead to this, essentially industry-standard bearing raceway retention guidelines have been ignored. Thanks to owner contributions we're now quite familiar with the internal layout of the gearbox and there are no aluminium shims or spacers that can be blamed. I'll note that all other EV gearboxes I've researched at don't have this issue with the potential exception of the Leaf.

Alternatively or additionally, the blackness could result from the iron particles being crushed into dust. I'm hoping that this is the only reason present because that should be easily remedied by effective magnetic particle filtration, e.g. adding a magnet because the stock one doesn't work. Black oil is always a sign of abnormal operation in a simple gear reducer even if it we have seen it in other vehicles. The short lifetime in hours required of gearboxes used in motor vehicles is why it's usually a tolerable situation and certainly we know that relevant lubrication-related failures are very rare in the Kona, I'm aware of perhaps 3 reported. The primary benefit from us adding a magnet or two is that we will get quieter operation over the car's lifetime. It's also possible that we'll be less susceptible to the tapping noise problem but that remains to be seen. But we're also learning a lot about magnets, thanks to those who have gone the extra mile!
One detail to add - Hyundai tried to get me to use THEIR Hyundai magnetic gear plug (I was surprised they had one available as an upgrade). They even mentioned possible warranty issues by me using the Votex plugs. But I stood my ground. I think they are used to getting their way with their customers most of whom know little about their cars. I include myself in that group with the recent exception of gear box drain plugs :geek:.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,913 Posts
Discussion Starter · #177 · (Edited)
One detail to add - Hyundai tried to get me to use THEIR Hyundai magnetic gear plug (I was surprised they had one available as an upgrade). They even mentioned possible warranty issues by me using the Votex plugs. But I stood my ground. I think they are used to getting their way with their customers most of whom know little about their cars. I include myself in that group with the recent exception of gear box drain plugs :geek:.
If you can prove your plug is better with better magnetization and you live in the usa, I don't think that will be a problem. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty act will be your friend. They just can't use any sweeping generality to void your warranty with that act. They have to prove it in court. You are not adding a tune that increases HP or a BOV that "CAN " alter the boost level of an engine that can void warranty. You are adding a BETTER/more robust magnet to fix a problem that Hyundai has. Hyundai has had bad IC engines for 12 years costing them 5 BILLION $$$. Hyundai is not known to fix issues for years/decades. Fix your problem as they seem to slip up on key major multi problems for years. You can't trust them to fix it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
472 Posts
One detail to add - Hyundai tried to get me to use THEIR Hyundai magnetic gear plug (I was surprised they had one available as an upgrade).
Around three Kona owners have bought the Hyundai "plug-magnet" and all parts turned out to be not only non-magnetic, but looks exactly the same as the stock plug. It's a comedy of errors. You could always have them order one just for fun. lol!
Font Rectangle Electric blue Plastic Auto part
 

·
Registered
2020 Kona EV Limited
Joined
·
33 Posts
Around three Kona owners have bought the Hyundai "plug-magnetic" and all parts turned out to be not only non-magnetic, but look exactly the same as the stock plug. It's a comedy of errors. You could always have them order one just for fun. lol!
View attachment 7245
Yes. That is the exact part they offered me as an upgrade and it does appear identical to the ones I had them replace today (they gave them to me along with the oil samples I requested).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
If you have the time, play their silly game and ask them to order one in. Then check it at the counter which will reveal that it's not magnetic. Then ask them to fix the error and get the correct one. Etc. The process may educate them.

..... Nah, probably not :(
 
161 - 180 of 232 Posts
Top