[08crd]

O.K taking into consideration @Kiwi comment, which was very pertinent, about the amount of oil turbulence in the reduction gearbox I have worked out another test. So I went to Bunnings and picked up this baby.
The plugs will have to be mounted directly into the oil to get an accurate comparison IMO and if I sprinkle a reasonable amount of filings in the centre of the oil and agitate for a reasonable amount of time it should give a raw but realistic comparison.
Any thoughts.

That puppy is going to agitate the oil and the three different sump plugs and magnet configurations are going to have to cope with it, go hard or go home.

One way or another we will solve this problem, with or without Hyundai, by the way I wish my car would arrive otherwise I'm losing a lot of time out of my life, I will never get back.
By the way, just waiting on the 30mm x 5mm magnets to arrive.

 

[Mainia1]

I may have posted this link in another Kona EV gear reduction post you guys here have started. I did a fast scan and did not find it here. In my quest to keep clean my rear diff on my AWD Kona 1.6T tuner car since it gets thrashed daily with performance driving and higher HP.

Here is the sweet spot for keeping AWD rear...

First off, I will say some dealers will say you don't need to change rear diff oil ever ( until your bearings get so beat up you need a new rear diff). Some will say it doesn't need it till 60,000 ( AFTER all the damage is done) The break in material is what does the damage. Getting it clean...

www.hyundaikonaforum.com

Also doing a very quick scan of this thread I was looking at the open case pics. Can I assume there is no shiftable gearbox and all the variation in speed is the electric motor? I will comment on this as there is no shiftable gearbox.

I no longer use the speced 70w-75 GL 4 in my DCT front diff/manual 7 speed gearbox. I use the step thicker non "CAFE standard" Hyundai would of used if not forced to comply with CAFE. I tow a small boat with my Kona and was talking to the R&D chemist at Redline oil when he was filling in for Dave, when he was on vacation. I asked what he thought about next step thicker oil MT 75w-85 GL-4 and even going the next step thicker. He said, no problem and highly suggested it with towing. That was even with him knowing my /-20 Minnesota winters.

So when I dug in deeper to this thread as I said above I will have to assume there is no shiftable gearbox here. WHY are they not using a Hypoid GL-5 oil with the added sulfur as there are no brass syncros? This oil far more robust for heavy loads and shear for hypoid gearing loads. I did see what appears to be brass in the case split pics. So first off there are many manual trans racing re-builders who use GL-5 in manual trans and say the sulfer issue is way way overblown. But there is also an alternative that Redline uses in cars like high HP Subaru's, Porsche, and ect. that call for GL-4, but really need GL-5 robustness. For you on warranty, if you stick with a GL-4 oil there won't be an issue going to the next thicker oil, you can't really tell the difference they as so close.

LIKE ALWAYS, I question Hyundai's engineering dept. on the finer details of metallurgy choice and oil choice. For being the wold's largest metals company they sure FAIL on a multitude of metal robustness choices across their car platforms.


75W90NS GL-5 Gear Oil

I will be curious to see, if like me and my rear diff babysitting, some of you find once your diff does it's full break-in you will have less wear issues. Also, don't get any ideas of adding moly or other additives to your oil as I found out on a pump at work, while working with a industrial oil R&D chemist those additives are very hard on seals. I said I tried using this and that, and he said "I bet you found out your seals don't last" I said yep.

 

[Kiwi]

So I went to Bunnings and picked up this baby.

Awesome! ... I had one of those when I lived in the states but didn't think to bring it to NZ. Bunnings or Mitre10 doesn't seem to have such sophisticated items here. It seems everytime I look for a useful tool all they offer me is a piece of #8 wire. Mitre10 has even branded that way, lol.

... Why are you not using a Hypoid GL-5 oil with the added sulfur as there are no brass syncros?

GL-5 has crossed my mind, ignoring the risk to the brass-backed seal. But we don't really have a wear problem, only a ferrous particle filtering problem. Hyundai understand that they need to sequester normal ferrous wear particles and consequently install the most well-established solution, an internal magnet. But all evidence so far indicates that their magnet is non-magnetic. Even their OEM magnetic plug intended for other Hyundai vehicles in three cases has proven to be non-magnetic. As owners we're simply correcting this odd production oversight and I expect our efforts to be 100% successful.

As for the viscosity, I'm comfortable that the 70W or 70W-75 is suitable. Every other EV that I've researched calls out an ATF, which has a nearly identical viscosity and the same EP rating. With a 2-stage reduction of about 7.9:1, a 10,000 RPM input and a road-speed output the requirements are wide-ranging but (IMO) favour avoiding cavitation at the input pinion rather than avoiding wear at the spider gears. We already know that owners in cold regions report a whine when cold and that could be indicative of approaching that edge of the envelope. Hyundai/Kia's new E-GMP generation of EVs have moved to ATF and so these legacy Kona/Niro vehicles will be the last to use the 70W. I suspect that it was specified only because it's the existing oil used in DCT (ICE) transmissions.

 

[Clonbur]

I've put off my second break in gear oil change until today. I'm going on a 1300 mile trip starting tomorrow and thought it was a good time to get the change done.

3454 miles on the odometer, 2504 miles on the oil. First change was at 750 miles. I'm happy with 24 foot pounds of torque (32.5 NM) on the drain and fill plugs. There was no evidence of leakage and the aluminum crush washer showed a slight impression.

Results are good, yes the oil is dark but has less of that light colored sheen that was present in the 750 mile factory original oil. The drain plug is the Votex mag plug and while it had a small amount of sludge on it that sludge was not gritty at all. I did wipe it on a paper towel and a light magnet does seem to be attracted to that smear a bit so there are some ferrous metal(s) present.

A photo of the Votex drain plug as it was when removed. I'm not sure that tells us much.

I thought about repeating my June 12th "light box" with a sample of new and drain oil, however, this oil is noticeably more transparent and in my original attempt to show the 750 mile oil sample vs new oil there was very little difference between the two. This 3400 mile sample would likely not tell me anything new.

AusKona's post of June 16 on this thread has changed my view of what I said about staring at a jug of drain oil and commenting on the black color vs new. There is something to the color of the oil. I'm wondering, if someone took a couple ounces of new oil and subjected it to the same heat experienced inside the gearbox for a time approximating 2000 miles, if the color would change without any break in contaminants. There's an experiment someone might want to try.

Photo of the 750 mile oil vs new. Drain oil on the left.

So I have to thank Kiwi and others for helping me get to this point with my EV. I am very pleased with the car and have had no problems with any of its normal functions. Range has been very good; topping off around 260 miles at 90 percent and averaging 4.5 mi/kW.

 

[Kiwi]

...I'm happy with 24 foot pounds of torque (32.5 NM) on the drain and fill plugs.

Thanks for verifying that.

I thought about repeating my June 12th "light box" with a sample of new and drain oil, however, this oil is noticeably more transparent and in my original attempt to show the 750 mile oil sample vs new oil there was very little difference between the two. This 3400 mile sample would likely not tell me anything new.

I think a UOA is the only way to learn more but I don't think what you're seeing is out of line with reports from other owners at similar miles. The volume of the debris on the magnet looks completely normal.

... I'm wondering, if someone took a couple ounces of new oil and subjected it to the same heat experienced inside the gearbox for a time approximating 2000 miles, if the color would change without any break in contaminants.

The gearbox casing runs at about 45°C the few times I've checked and that concurs with a measurement from another owner. It's certainly true that the oil experiences a much higher momentary temperature spike when under high pressure such as when passing through gear tooth meshing. However, if that heating had resulted in oxidation of the oil (which could turn it black) we would see that in the UOA and so-far we haven't. Judging from the load-appropriate width of the gears and that we haven't had any reports of gear tooth failures I'm comfortable that this is unlikely to be a contributing factor.

So I have to thank Kiwi and others for helping me get to this point with my EV.

You're welcome of course and it's great to have owners on board who take these issues seriously and report back such that we all benefit. I'm at 22,500 km now (14,000 miles) and I'll be checking the oil condition in another 800 km. My Kona runs perfectly quiet with only the faintest of gear noises. You're only the second or third owner I'm aware of that has caught this from near new and the car should run as quietly as possible.

 

[Zes]

If anybody has ordered aluminum washers online for the oil replacement plugs, can you please post the link? I need to have a set handy for the next change. Thank you!

 

[Clonbur]

If anybody has ordered aluminum washers online for the oil replacement plugs, can you please post the link? I need to have a set handy for the next change. Thank you!

Amazon.com: VOTEX - MADE IN USA - ACWM18-20 Pack - M18 Aluminum Oil or Coolant Crush Washers/Drain Plug Seal Ring Gasket : Automotive

Buy VOTEX - MADE IN USA - ACWM18-20 Pack - M18 Aluminum Oil or Coolant Crush Washers/Drain Plug Seal Ring Gasket: Oil Drain Plugs - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

 

[Zes]

Amazon.com: VOTEX - MADE IN USA - ACWM18-20 Pack - M18 Aluminum Oil or Coolant Crush Washers/Drain Plug Seal Ring Gasket : Automotive

Buy VOTEX - MADE IN USA - ACWM18-20 Pack - M18 Aluminum Oil or Coolant Crush Washers/Drain Plug Seal Ring Gasket: Oil Drain Plugs - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

Thank you!
Placed the order..

 

[08crd]

Someone might be able to answer this for me, does the Kona E.V have an open diff or a limited slip diff?
When I watch the video of the 0-100km/hr, it looks as though both tyres are smoking, when traction control is taken off, if it was an open diff I would have expected one tyre to be doing most of the smoking (3min22sec point)

And this clip at the 2:02 marks on the road Vs the 2:20 marks, it looks as though both tyres are laying rubber.

For A Small Electric Crossover, The Hyundai Kona Can Definitely Burn Rubber | Carscoops

 

[Mainia1]

Someone might be able to answer this for me, does the Kona E.V have an open diff or a limited slip diff?
When I watch the video of the 0-100km/hr, it looks as though both tyres are smoking, when traction control is taken off, if it was an open diff I would have expected one tyre to be doing most of the smoking (3min22sec point)

And this clip at the 2:02 marks on the road Vs the 2:20 marks, it looks as though both tyres are laying rubber.

For A Small Electric Crossover, The Hyundai Kona Can Definitely Burn Rubber | Carscoops

Open diff. ONLY the N's get LSDs.

 

[Kiwi]

For those here who are not on the InsideEVs forum, I'll just note that we've had a Kona owner in NZ who did a first oil change at 37,000 km with a used-oil analysis and it did not exhibit the blackness, nor were the analysis values as high as we've previously seen. It's added to the graph below that I've been using to track UOA data. The data has four original oil (no added magnets) and one 2nd oil change (with magnets) so far. There are two Leaf UOAs included for reference. The wide trendline is for Kona aluminium only, original oil no magnet.
EDIT 9 Aug: Aside from the JohnL data I've added a newly-reported 1st change UOA at around 6700 km (Shiggy, SK) and a linear trendline for iron. The purpose of the trendlines is just as a sniff test rather than to imply that PPM advances linearly with distance.

The latest addition, JohnL's oil (first pic below) was not black after being allowed to settle, despite 37,000 km with no added magnet. It has the "mottled" mix of clear oil plus black particles, something like the test @08crd did with clean oil in a container.
We've seen this several other times now and it's looking less like an outlier and more like something worth our attention. We have reports of at least 30 first-time changes showing black oil but this is the third or forth approximately showing the mottled oil. I'm starting to wonder if it's primarily aluminium contamination that causes the blackness? The aluminium almost certainly comes from outer raceway spin and perhaps some examples do this more than others?

Another characteristic that's more obvious in cleaner oil is that once settled only some of the black particles are attracted to a magnet. I had put that down to those particles having seen more mechanical abuse, losing their ferromagnetism. Another possibility is that these are remnants of the silicone sealer used as a gasket. I don't think they are aluminium because the nature of the raceway spin would lead to ultra fine debris rather than anything discernable as a particle. On my own car I allowed 6 months for the original oil at 19,000 km to settle but it never did, staying jet-black throughout. Almost nothing from the used oil could be attracted by a magnet.

We don't know if JohnL's Kona has a working factory magnet but that might explain the low iron level. We can see that magnets work well to lower iron contamination.

37,000 km original oil, no added magnet (ignoring the one in the bottle)

3,576 km drain interval on 2nd change, ext magnet in place

142 km original oil, no added magnet

 

[ferij]

Not qualified to comment on any of the above. I will have the oil changed at the 14000 km service. Not sure why 14000. If you ever need iron filings go to a brake shop. They usually have stacks (Oz for lots) from the disk and drum machining.

 

[Clonbur]

Thank you!
Placed the order..

Votex - made in my home state!

You're welcome,

A proud Cheesehead

 

[Shiggy]

I received the analysis back from Blackstone Labs today for my 2020 Kona EV. The gear oil sample was taken at 4,200 miles when I had the oil replaced and both the fill and drain plugs replaced with Votex plugs. They said "Wear metals and silicon are high for 4,200 miles but that's normal in factory oil due to wear-in of new parts and silicon from sealer/lubes. Expect the bolded elements to improve at face value and on a per-mile basis next time and eventually resemble the universal averages for a Hyundai automatic which are based on approx. 40,000 miles of use. This MTF has a viscosity closer to that of an ATF at 5.35 cSt. Insolubles measured at 0.4%, which would be a high level for most ATF's, so it's good that the oil was changed out. Check back next oil change to look for progress."

 

[Shiggy]

For those here who are not on the InsideEVs forum, I'll just note that we've had a Kona owner in NZ who did a first oil change at 37,000 km with a used-oil analysis and it did not exhibit the blackness, nor were the analysis values as high as we've previously seen. It's added to the graph below that I've been using to track UOA data. The data has four original oil (no added magnets) and one 2nd oil change (with magnets) so far. There are two Leaf UOAs included for reference. The wide trendline is for Kona aluminium only, original oil no magnet.
EDIT 9 Aug: Aside from the JohnL data I've added a newly-reported 1st change UOA at around 6700 km (SK) and a linear trendline for iron. The purpose of the trendlines is just as a sniff test rather than to imply that PPM advances linearly with distance.
View attachment 7328

The latest addition, JohnL's oil (first pic below) was not black after being allowed to settle, despite 37,000 km with no added magnet. It has the "mottled" mix of clear oil plus black particles, something like the test @08crd did with clean oil in a container.
We've seen this several other times now and it's looking less like an outlier and more like something worth our attention. We have reports of at least 30 first-time changes showing black oil but this is the third or forth approximately showing the mottled oil. I'm starting to wonder if it's primarily aluminium contamination that causes the blackness? The aluminium almost certainly comes from outer raceway spin and perhaps some examples do this more than others?

Another characteristic that's more obvious in cleaner oil is that once settled only some of the black particles are attracted to a magnet. I had put that down to those particles having seen more mechanical abuse, losing their ferromagnetism. Another possibility is that these are remnants of the silicone sealer used as a gasket. I don't think they are aluminium because the nature of the raceway spin would lead to ultra fine debris rather than anything discernable as a particle. On my own car I allowed 6 months for the original oil at 19,000 km to settle but it never did, staying jet-black throughout. Almost nothing from the used oil could be attracted by a magnet.

We don't know if JohnL's Kona has a working factory magnet but that might explain the low iron level. We can see that magnets work well to lower iron contamination.

View attachment 7317 37,000 km original oil, no added magnet (ignoring the one in the bottle) View attachment 7318 3,576 km drain interval on 2nd change, ext magnet in place
View attachment 7319 142 km original oil, no added magnet

I still have a small container of the gear oil taken at 4,200 miles. I put a little in a dish and posted a photo but I see that is not ideal. So what would be the ideal procedure for me to put the oil in a jar etc. etc. and at intervals photograph it as above? Let me know. Thanks!

 

[Kiwi]

Shiggy, your results are very typical for the Kona and there's no need to keep the remaining oil sample. As I implied over at InsideEVs by adding the Votex plugs the gearbox is now where Hyundai had intended it to be (regarding ferrous particle retention) and any further oil changes are less important. The iron levels will be under control and that's what matters.

For the others, Shiggy's data is incorporated in the graph at post #191 as SK.

 

[08crd]

A bit of an update, I received the 30mm magnets, to use on the 18mm sump plug with the 30mm head.
They arrived late so I only had time to do one quick test, I placed two magnets on the head of the sump plug and quickly did the magnetic field strength test as per post #158.
The reading back then on the Vortex plug was 276uT
The sump plug with the 4x 20mm magnets gave a reading of 343uT
The new test on the 18mm sump plug with 2x30mm magnets gave a reading of 571uT.
So as soon as possible, hopefully tomorrow i can do some comparison tests.

 

[Clonbur]

After a suggestion from Kiwi about filtering my drain oil I filtered the 750 mile drain oil 2X. Then I filtered the 3454 mile drain oil 2X. I returned both separately to their original containers and documented the mileage so I wouldn't mix them up as I was thinking if I reuse the oil I'll just use the later drain oil with less (hopefully) contaminants. I've decided that with the amount of impurities in the 750 mile oil I will just take that to the local recycling center. After filtering the 3454 mile oil and seeing the black color and weighing that with the fact that I will "only" pay $26 US for a new quart I've decided that I'll do the same with that oil. My next change at maybe 10k or 15k miles gives me plenty of time to order new oil and it is very easy to get online in less than a week.

Because I do this maintenance myself and considering the real cost of two aluminum washers and a quart of Red Line MT-LV comes to less than $30 and an hour of effort I am going to take the 3454 mile oil to the recycling center as well. I think it would be OK to reuse the second quart again but have thought why take the chance. I can understand someone reusing the oil after paying double and finds it difficult to source the oil in their home country.

Of course if I hit one of the milage points mid-winter I will wait until spring. That's the beauty of learning here how to go about the maintenance and that Hyundai is recommending WAY more miles between changes. I can put it off for months. I don't see putting on more than 12k miles per year and it's likely a lot less.

 

[Kiwi]

As it happens I'm unlikely to re-use oil again as I did at the last inspection after a 2,000 km interval. After the next change in a few months (start of summer) I'll probably just do further changes once a year, irrespective of kms driven. I doubt it will need it but my curiosity couldn't wait any longer. Australian-made Penrite 70W-75 cost me $83 for 2.5 litres off the shelf while the Redline is about $50 shipped per US qt, no big deal either way. NZ dollars of course but in terms of local value it's comparable to the US$.

If it was colder than freezing here in winter or we had a higher highway speed limit I'd pay the extra for the Redline because it's a perfect viscosity match to the OEM oil while the Penrite is slightly thicker. Most highway driving here is 80-100 km/h and as a result I see nearly 500 km on the GoM in winter when the battery is at 7°C.

 

[Shiggy]

As it happens I'm unlikely to re-use oil again as I did at the last inspection after a 2,000 km interval. After the next change in a few months (start of summer) I'll probably just do further changes once a year, irrespective of kms driven. I doubt it will need it but my curiosity couldn't wait any longer. Australian-made Penrite 70W-75 cost me $83 for 2.5 litres off the shelf while the Redline is about $50 shipped per US qt, no big deal either way. NZ dollars of course but in terms of local value it's comparable to the US$.

If it was colder than freezing here in winter or we had a higher highway speed limit I'd pay the extra for the Redline because it's a perfect viscosity match to the OEM oil while the Penrite is slightly thicker. Most highway driving here is 80-100 km/h and as a result I see nearly 500 km on the GoM in winter when the battery is at 7°C.

Translation - "GoM"?