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I only have basic electronics from over 50 years ago so have some trouble understanding what this guy is saying. It seems to be that Hyundai are going to break down the battery packs and put a safety barrier in each of 294 cells in each effected car??

If I haven’t misunderstood it sounds a tad labour-intensive. And wouldn’t older batteries still be susceptible to dendrite problems in the future ??

If someone can give a simpler explanation for ignoramuses like me I’d appreciate it.
 

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Apparently the defect is buried within the scores of cells that make up the battery. The defect may exist in only a single cell in a battery and not exist in the vast majority of the battery packs manufactured at the manufacturing plant where the defects originated. It is almost impossible to detect the defect electrically until the degradation has reached the point where catastrophic failure is highly probable. It also can't be detected through some routine physical inspection. It likely is impractical to replace individual cells in the battery that are suspect. It is virtually impossible to repair a cell that has the defect. As a result it is more likely that the battery packs, within the recalled vehicles will eventually be replaced with newly manufactured battery packs.

The upgraded Battery Management System (BMS) monitors the battery, looking for minor irregularities in the charging characteristics of the cells. If it detects a suspect condition it flags it and turns on a warning indication. Vehicles that show such indications will be the first to have their batteries replaced.

As I was viewing the narrator, in the video, it was clear to me that he was no expert and that he was making some errors in his presentation.
 

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It does seem from the UK forum that the basic info in the video is accurate, but pertains only to the UK and Rep of Ireland. But things do seems to be moving slowly along as one UK owner has received a confirmation email regarding his own car being affected. I would imagine us in NZ/AUS will get more info soon.

... Hyundai are going to break down the battery packs and put a safety barrier in each of 294 cells ...

... And wouldn’t older batteries still be susceptible to dendrite problems in the future ??
The simple answers to those are "no" and "yes". We're getting entirely NEW batteries and the tab in question will not be located dangerously close to the separator.
 

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TRT:

The safety layer you mention is he "separator layer" . Does not need to be installed, it has been already part of the lion battery design for a while. I is a semi permeable ( it think metallic) barrier that lets electrons through, but not the Li ions. My (very limited) understanding is, that an intact separator layer prevents dendrites from connecting the anode and cathode, which is the mechanism implicated in causing a short, and ultimately the battery fires. Dendrite formation is not necessarily a deadly thing by itself and to some degree these crystalline structures form, and desolve in the electrolite during depletion and charging. My impression was that the problem was a compromised separator layer. (The sharp folds created during manufacturing are suspected/implicated in puncturing the Separator Layer).

As to what Hyundai or Lg Chem will do with the batteries that get returned after a swap? That is a good question. I would expect they can recycle some of the expensive raw materials and recover some of the new battery cost. "repairing" or "remanufacturing" these maybe and option ( no idea what would be involved) but I am certain that a dealer does not have the equipment or
know-how to effect field repairs of a battery pack.
 

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TRT:

The safety layer you mention is he "separator layer" . Does not need to be installed, it has been already part of the lion battery design for a while. I is a semi permeable ( it think metallic) barrier that lets electrons through, but not the Li ions. My (very limited) understanding is, that an intact separator layer prevents dendrites from connecting the anode and cathode, which is the mechanism implicated in causing a short, and ultimately the battery fires. Dendrite formation is not necessarily a deadly thing by itself and to some degree these crystalline structures form, and desolve in the electrolite during depletion and charging. My impression was that the problem was a compromised separator layer. (The sharp folds created during manufacturing are suspected/implicated in puncturing the Separator Layer).

As to what Hyundai or Lg Chem will do with the batteries that get returned after a swap? That is a good question. I would expect they can recycle some of the expensive raw materials and recover some of the new battery cost. "repairing" or "remanufacturing" these maybe and option ( no idea what would be involved) but I am certain that a dealer does not have the equipment or
know-how to effect field repairs of a battery pack.
Since the probability of failure is rare in the thousands of battery packs and it is far lower with proper battery management control, including limiting the maximum charge, these packs could prove useful in other applications where the threat of a rare fire isn't so great. For example, they could be used at solar and wind power farms to store the generated power. Some recycling centers now look for possible applications of battery packs that have aged but can still store significant amounts of energy. A residence could also employ them for solar storage as long as they were located in a remote structure from the house.
 

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I received a letter from Hyundai UK today, saying the battery recall is a two step process.
1) Take your vehicle into your dealer, who will lower the change limit to 90%
or you can do it yourself
2) Hyundai UK will contact you "as soon as we have an update on the parts availability and to book your vehicle in for high voltage battery assembly replacement".
 

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I do not believe these battery packs can be re-used as is, because they have a known manufacturing/design defect (clearly documented),
IMO this presents a well-established line of liability.

Electric battery fires are difficult to put out because some of the ingredients release oxygen upon exposure to heat.
If you put a battery into an application and a fire occurs, it is not just a defective cell but the whole battery installation will burn.
For most of the application you list, this seems problematic.
 

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I do not believe these battery packs can be re-used as is, because they have a known manufacturing/design defect (clearly documented),
IMO this presents a well-established line of liability.

Electric battery fires are difficult to put out because some of the ingredients release oxygen upon exposure to heat.
If you put a battery into an application and a fire occurs, it is not just a defective cell but the whole battery installation will burn.
For most of the application you list, this seems problematic.
I do understand that in a society, where lawsuits are common, it would be highly problematic.

As far as the defect being clearly documented my assumption is that it is not known what percentage of the battery packs contain cells that might have the fold-over defect. It seems to be extremely difficult to detect which cells will cascade to failure if charged above the 80% level. Such recalls can take place not because all those batteries contain the defect but because they are 'suspected' to have a defect which was not an intended aspect of the manufacturing process.
 

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Gasbugy,

it is my understanding that the "fold" is just a sharp bend at the end of the anode that is created as the result of a manufacturing step.
The manufacturing step "folds" a long anode strip into battery cell sized chunks, then cuts the strip into short segments, leaving a sharp bend at the end of the strip .
( the bend) I think of the batteries subject to recall have this.

The difference between failing and non-failing batteries, that the failing batteries indicate heat and charge anomalies, or loss of voltage while the car is just sitting there.
One theory is that when the BMS shuts the car down, the sharp end of the anode has pierced the separator layer, leading to the internal current leak.
In batteries that do not show any anomalies, the separator layer is still intact.

Kiwi posted the theory earlier in this thread that limiting the charge is just meant to minimize thermal movement when the battery is charged

At least this is my (limited) understanding based on what we have seen so far. esp. the cross-section picture of the battery, indicating the "anode bend" .
(Could be totally wrong). Based on the analysis of what Hyundai actually said, I am pretty sure that "Tab" means stripe, and the "fold" is located inside of the battery.

It would help if Hyundai explained in layman's terms the exact nature and mechanism of the failure, but they unfortunately opted to give us a rather cryptic
unclear explanation instead.
 

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For what it's worth GM (Chevrolet) has announced they are rolling out a "fix" for the Bolt's very-similar battery issue. They will "inspect" cars and replace modules containing any cells that appear compromised. They'll install a software patch that will analyse cells on-going to check for problems, appearing very much like what we already have in the Kona with campaign 196 last year.
The 64kWh Kona has 10 modules of varying numbers of cells; I recall the Bolt is similar. Weber Auto channel (YouTube) has a disassembly video of the Bolt pack for those interested.
I had fully expected GM to come up with the most penny-pinching solution possible and it appears that they have fully met my expectations. Owners are being asked to drive around a car with a known potential problem and settle for a solution that really just attempts to detect it before it self-combusts. Many Bolt owners have been offered buy-backs and no-doubt that is the better choice. It's also interesting that they are delving into the battery packs, a task I'd expect dealers to resist but perhaps they're organizing bulk processing facilities across the country.
 

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Based on the limited experience I had with the few repairs we had on our 3 Sonatas we had so far, the dealer service techs scare me. Those guys seem incompetent and indifferent to me. I am not saying they are all like that (only the ones I have run into) I would be really worried if I had to trust a dealer service tech to get some non-trivial procedure right, where there are serious consequences for not doing a proper job.
Whenever they take a skid plate off the car, and they simply don't put it back, and I have to complain. When they put the skid plate back on they usually omit half of the fasteners.
 

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Do U.S. dealers still put protective plastic over the seats and steering wheel and use paper floor mats? I miss that and it would never be done here. So far I've found minor scratches on the console where they seems to be placing something for upgrades, and the faint smell of cigarettes on the leather steering wheel. The techs unfortunately seems be be lacking in that aspect of professionalism but haven't made any technical mistakes so far, and that's really the bottom line for me.

Decades back I took my new 2000 Xterra into the main Nissan dealer in San Diego because it needed a new rear differential. They returned it with half the screws loose on the 3rd member and the brake lines mangled because they couldn't be bothered disconnecting them before pulling the axles out. Miramar VW crashed my new 2003 Golf while the tech was driving it and they sent it to the cheapest body shop they could find. It had a bent rear axle and wheel along with body damage. The car never drove straight after that so I sold it as-is at only 5,000 miles. The dealer's owner even verbally threatened me because I wanted it properly fixed.
 

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For what it's worth GM (Chevrolet) has announced they are rolling out a "fix" for the Bolt's very-similar battery issue. They will "inspect" cars and replace modules containing any cells that appear compromised. They'll install a software patch that will analyse cells on-going to check for problems, appearing very much like what we already have in the Kona with campaign 196 last year.
The 64kWh Kona has 10 modules of varying numbers of cells; I recall the Bolt is similar. Weber Auto channel (YouTube) has a disassembly video of the Bolt pack for those interested.
I had fully expected GM to come up with the most penny-pinching solution possible and it appears that they have fully met my expectations. Owners are being asked to drive around a car with a known potential problem and settle for a solution that really just attempts to detect it before it self-combusts. Many Bolt owners have been offered buy-backs and no-doubt that is the better choice. It's also interesting that they are delving into the battery packs, a task I'd expect dealers to resist but perhaps they're organizing bulk processing facilities across the country.

Yikes.

 

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Yikes is right. Depending on whether the owner had adhered to the 90% max SoC directive, GM will have to have a long talk with their accountants, marketing and legal departments.
 

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Hello all,
I found a good deal on a used Hyundai Kona EV 2019 model with low mileage.
I really like the car and i love all the features it has but i am hesitant because of the safety issues regarding fires related to battery.
The dealer mentioned that it was imported from South Korea but it hadn't been recalled and he has papers to prove that.
What can i do ? should i stay away ?
 

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Yikes is right. Depending on whether the owner had adhered to the 90% max SoC directive, GM will have to have a long talk with their accountants, marketing and legal departments.
So, according to Transport Evolved the Bolt was at about 70% SOC and not charging. The owners were aware of the 90% limit directive as well.
 
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